Lessons from Real Life Shootings

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ncjw
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Lessons from Real Life Shootings

Post by ncjw » Sat Jul 18, 2020 9:43 am

Bodycam Shows Armed Suspect Running at Michigan Deputy Before Being Shot (1:06 mins)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXpYqjK ... e=emb_logo

IMHO, one of the most interesting body cam videos ever. Reportedly, the guy had already stabbed someone before being pulled over.

Lessons:

- First rule of a gun fight - bring a gun.

- An attacker with a knife can get darn close to killing you even after being shot multiple times.

- People are crazy. They will advance against a person with a gun with the drop on them.

- Shoot until the threat is over.

- Practice clearing malfunctions until it is automatic.

- 10 round magazine limits will cost lives.
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Re: Lessons from Real Life Shootings

Post by Janik » Sat Jul 18, 2020 12:01 pm

I posted this vid in one of our FB groups and mentioned this is why I don't carry micro compacts. Scary stuff. Thinking of starting to carry my CZ P07 with 15 round mags. Right now it's my Walther P99c or Canik SC. I never heard anyone in a real gun fight ever say they wish they had a smaller handgun or less ammo.
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Re: Lessons from Real Life Shootings

Post by Tejas Products » Sat Jul 18, 2020 1:10 pm

I know... I've always carried 7 - 9 round 9mm sub compacts, but I'm also re-evaluating my choice... I only carry concealed, but as the years go by the less I am worried about printing.. And interestingly enough (Especially here in Texas) nobody is raising an eyebrow if they even notice my bulge. (I'm just going to let that one go :-) ).. But yea... Looking for something with at least 12 to 15 rounds...
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Re: Lessons from Real Life Shootings

Post by LT USN (Ret.) » Sat Jul 18, 2020 1:58 pm

WOW! I carry 10 +1 with a backup mag and now wondering if I shouldn't go to my full size M&P.
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Re: Lessons from Real Life Shootings

Post by jgillaspy » Sat Jul 18, 2020 2:35 pm

I"m curious as to how many of those shots were on target? I don't see the body moving from impact. The perp sounded almost autistic as well. Was he on something?

JG
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Re: Lessons from Real Life Shootings

Post by ncjw » Sat Jul 18, 2020 3:15 pm

I think what you are seeing is real life and not the movies. If you slow down the video (use the period and comma keys for frame by frame control on YT) you can see where her weapon is when she shoots. IMHO, she gets a few hits before the perp gets to her.

I am pretty sure the perp hitting or grabbing the gun causes the jam, but she clears it quickly. I don't think it was a malfunction.

The shot to the leg definitely slows him down but he is still willing to keep fighting. Notice that even on that one, which is a definite hit, there is no apparent hole or blood or evidence of an exit wound or material coming out the back. If it hit bone he still had weight on it when he bent over.

The guy was a state employee with a technical construction job so he wasn't handicapped. No idea if he was on something.

The ME report will be interesting to see if he was on anything and how many shots scored.

Time to practice 3 yard mag dumps.
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Re: Lessons from Real Life Shootings

Post by TL1000RSquid » Sat Jul 18, 2020 4:17 pm

People dont just drop when getting shot like on TV unless its a good CNS shot. Hard to say how many of her shots were hits again its not movies unless its arterial hit blood isnt going to come gushing out immediately.

My summer carry is usually 8+1 or 12+1 but I do carry a spare.
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Re: Lessons from Real Life Shootings

Post by TL1000RSquid » Sat Jul 18, 2020 4:21 pm

Tejas Products wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 1:10 pm
I know... I've always carried 7 - 9 round 9mm sub compacts, but I'm also re-evaluating my choice... I only carry concealed, but as the years go by the less I am worried about printing.. And interestingly enough (Especially here in Texas) nobody is raising an eyebrow if they even notice my bulge. (I'm just going to let that one go :-) ).. But yea... Looking for something with at least 12 to 15 rounds...
I'm starting to come around some, carrying in NY for about 15 years before moving to TX I was always worried about printing or exposing my carry gun, in NY you could get hit with a brandishing charge and lose your CHL. A few times now I've been in a rush and instead of grabbing my pocket carry i've put on OWB and just let my shirt cover it, I feel like everyone knows I'm carrying when I do that but truth is noone other then other gun guys probably think its a gun.
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Re: Lessons from Real Life Shootings

Post by qballbandit » Sat Jul 18, 2020 9:48 pm

My Personal Instructor, with LE & Security background, told me of an instance where one guy on crack needed 11 hits of 45 acp to drop him to the ground.
I will never carry anything under the 13 rds I get in my Beretta APX Compact (plus my spare mag - for failures more than extra rounds). Imagine two guys on crack!

Neil 8-)
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Re: Lessons from Real Life Shootings

Post by BentAero » Sun Jul 19, 2020 8:17 pm

Too whacked. I would never have thought a person could take so many rounds and keep on coming...

On a personal note, 30 years ago I lived less than one mile from the Quality Dairy store where the stabbing occurred. I would stop at that very store to buy donuts ahh... frequently... on the way to work. QD used to have the best chocolate donuts.
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Re: Lessons from Real Life Shootings

Post by deserttrans » Mon Jul 20, 2020 8:43 am

I realize all the scrutiny LE is under now days. Does anyone think she should of engaged the attacker sooner?
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Re: Lessons from Real Life Shootings

Post by zeda3000 » Mon Jul 20, 2020 3:35 pm

I will try comment as what i understood from YT video. First of all Police officer was alone. Patrols must be double. This is first wrong.

Second Patrol Car is your Castle. Do not allow enemy to get closer your castle. If enemy coming directly to officer car without doubt, there is only one reason. To kill to officer. The red circle show you maximum point officer may allow the criminal get closer and warning him. After this zone leg shoots must be immeditly.

Image

If this guy suddenly run to right sight of patrol car and get lower and use patrol car for hide him self or as shield. Police officer will be not so lucky. Clean view is so important. Check the video 0.34 he so close to officer , gun flash light spoting him on tshirt in day light. And he try to push officer pistol down with left hand to open clear area to stab the officer.

Shooting range it may make you good shooter but isnt make you good fighter. Real life you have millisecond to think and do something. I count 12 shoots. Untill Pistol Jam 6 fires. 6 fires there is no kill shoot from 3 meter? What if he was wear bullet proof west?

Last word : sub compact is could be nice for carry. But we are not James Bond. your life could be deppend for one more bullet. There is no need it for extra magazine. We need it correct gun with correct ammo capacity. And i think pistol was Glock.
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Re: Lessons from Real Life Shootings

Post by Lgaam » Tue Jul 21, 2020 7:47 am

The slide locked back as she was firing, probably thumbed the slide stop. Him hitting the gun/her arm put it back in battery, but she was already going for the failure drill. At least 1 round hit the street just behind the subject.

For just me, myself, on a quick trip, or around the house, the XDs with the 8 round mag (9 rounds on the off-side out of the house) is generally good enough. If I'm on an excursion or extended outing, or out with the family in any capacity, it's my Elite with 18+3 on the off-side. My thoughts are that getting 4 kids (6-16) moving away from danger is going to take a stout rearguard action. Given the state of the world right now, my Elite is getting all the duty all the time, and the 2nd 15 rounder is staged in the door of the truck.
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Re: Lessons from Real Life Shootings

Post by ncjw » Tue Jul 21, 2020 7:18 pm

I agree with Zeda that he could have used the car for cover or an angle to attack her.

I also think that the perp caused the malfunction and that she did a great job clearing it.

But I am seriously considering swapping out the .380 for carry for the SC. Most encounters might be three rounds in three seconds but the ones that aren't could cost too much.
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Re: Lessons from Real Life Shootings

Post by qballbandit » Tue Jul 21, 2020 9:40 pm

This example reinforces how important it is, if we are defensive minded firearm owners, to get proper training: Personal and Home Defense Classes (and FOF where available). I can't stress enough after going through them as a student, and currently taking the instructor qualification versions as well, how the tactical aspects of defensive shooting need to be ingrained as muscle memory just as the fundamental aspects of our shooting should be.
Acquiring this knowledge, and applying it practically through dedicated dry fire and live fire practice (in ranges that allow holster draw, and tactical shooting with the proper qualifications) is paramount.
From Reading/Assessing/Reacting intelligently, to the draw strokes, reflexively knowing which position after the draw you will need to shoot from if committed to doing so, the relationship between point and sight shooting, getting off the "X", being sound with the various types of reloads, recognizing failures and how to react instinctively, on the move, Conceal & Cover, etc. - this takes dedication and hard, but enjoyable work.
Competitive shooters develop and use much of these skills - and it doesn't come without dedication and practice, but the new or casual shooter can certainly be unaware of how different typical range shooting is vs. defensive/tactical shooting.
My apologies if this sounds "preachy", as that is honestly not my intent while writing this. It's to provide awareness for those who may not have reached this step or awareness in their shooting life.
Admittedly, I have only been shooting for about three years. But, I fell in fast and deep, and quickly developed a passion not just for shooting, but for defensive shooting. It's a thirst I have yet to be able to quench, and that's a good thing, because there is so much training available yet to explore. And as a newly anointed Instructor, I enjoy teaching as much as learning, and they really do go hand-in-hand.

Neil 8-)
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Re: Lessons from Real Life Shootings

Post by LT USN (Ret.) » Wed Jul 22, 2020 6:32 am

qballbandit wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 9:40 pm
Competitive shooters develop and use much of these skills - and it doesn't come without dedication and practice, but the new or casual shooter can certainly be unaware of how different typical range shooting is vs. defensive/tactical shooting.
a BIG +1.

I don't think I would have ever learned how to reload literally "on the run" if I didn't start competitive shooting. I also learned my practice sessions where all wrong for the real world. Punching holes in paper is good for learning firearm control, trigger set/reset, etc., etc. But in no way gets you prepared for defensive handgunning. Training and practice, as stated above, is the only way to have value-added learning.
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Re: Lessons from Real Life Shootings

Post by ncjw » Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:11 pm

Regarding the Kenosha shooting: How can someone not be DOA from seven rounds in the back at a range of one foot? I hope the guy survives, but sheesh.

As usual, we need for all of the data to be in, but unless there was a gun in the car (and that would already be out by now), this one looks really bad.
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Re: Lessons from Real Life Shootings

Post by geokr084 » Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:16 am

Great job by that officer. This video will live on for years in close combat training scenarios.
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Re: Lessons from Real Life Shootings

Post by ncjw » Wed Aug 26, 2020 10:20 am

Re: Kenosha. Saw a report that only 4 of the 7 shots hit the victim. From literally arm's length.

May explain why he is still alive, but still, taking 4 x 9mm that close?

Also, he did have something in his left hand, but can't tell if it is a knife, gun or something else. Didn't appear to be a phone.

If he was armed or had a weapon in the car, to not make that public at this point is unthinkable, which leads me to think that he didn't. No explanation yet as to why he was tased or why they didn't cuff him while/after tased.
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Re: Lessons from Real Life Shootings

Post by ncjw » Wed Aug 26, 2020 8:55 pm

Wisc. DOJ has just said that he had/was going to get a knife and there was a knife found on the driver's side floor of the car. Now probably a justified shooting.

So instead of waiting for more facts and the justice system to work, tens of millions of dollars of damage has been done and a couple of people are dead.

Will they ever learn?
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