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General Discussion Section for All Other Makes and Models of Handguns and Rifles, including Aftermarket Accessories. Please keep Canik Firearm discussions in the Canik section.
#19477
Why? I don't understand why people carry with an empty chamber. If you don't trust your equipment, or don't have confidence in carrying safely with a round in the chamber, maybe more training is required. I know a few people who carry empty, and I just can't wrap my head around it. I know people think they will have time to rack a round if the need arises, but situations can happen instantly, and needing to chamber a round could get you killed. I'm not trying to degrade anyone, but I think carrying with a round in the chamber is a safer option then having to chamber in an emergency. Thoughts?
#19481
I agree.....there are many "different" handguns out there. Some are fairly easy to rack, others no so easy.
I can just see someone carrying a Kahr pistol with an empty chamber.

Not knocking Kahrs- I have 2, but Kahr even suggests you do not to rack the slide to chamber a round. Their instructions are to lock the slide back, insert loaded mag, then use the slide release lever to chamber round.

Even in easy racking guns you can get into trouble trying to load up "after the fact".
When I put a gun on- its ready to go.
#19485
I choose to never, and I mean never purposefully allow the bad guy to get any advantage past the one he already has - element of surprise.
In the defensive shooting situation, I can't fathom needing to get a round in before pushing the trigger, or, worse yet, just pushing the trigger off of "range" instinct, and then having to work through why the gun didn't fire! Game over. :o

Neil 8-)
#19489
Guys carry option is depends of where are you living and what is threat level. Example i am not from usa and i am highly training charge my pistol or rifle and shoot it. I don't think this issue depends of trust. Carry full chamber it is not make you ready for gun fight. Can you analyze the situations ? , can you aim under pressure, do you know where to shoot? Don't think empty chamber is weakness, this is option.

How many of yours been in real gun fight ever? Loaded chamber pistol is not prepare you for gun fight. It is only gives you over confidence.

Second think is , there is simple rule. Never point loaded gun your self. If you have only option concealed carry option like in my country. You have to put gun into your pants , so it is make conflict with first rule. If i will allowed open carry i never think about empty chamber. But i am not interesting point the loaded chamber pistol to my balls.
#19494
zeda3000 wrote: Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:02 am Guys carry option is depends of where are you living and what is threat level. Example i am not from usa and i am highly training charge my pistol or rifle and shoot it. I don't think this issue depends of trust. Carry full chamber it is not make you ready for gun fight. Can you analyze the situations ? , can you aim under pressure, do you know where to shoot? Don't think empty chamber is weakness, this is option.

How many of yours been in real gun fight ever? Loaded chamber pistol is not prepare you for gun fight. It is only gives you over confidence.

Second think is , there is simple rule. Never point loaded gun your self. If you have only option concealed carry option like in my country. You have to put gun into your pants , so it is make conflict with first rule. If i will allowed open carry i never think about empty chamber. But i am not interesting point the loaded chamber pistol to my balls.
Respect your opinion.

It's not the right one for me. If I pants carry, it's wearing something like cargo shorts with loose access to pockets. In that choice, it's my PPS M2 with 6 rd mag or it's the sp101.
Getting to the weapon in a pants carry mode already is more cahallenging than a owb high ride jackslide style
holster "for me". But of course is better than nothing at all. That said, empty chamber is never an option I choose "for me" when EDC. That said, my manual of arms/ muscle memory is to always thumb sweep for a safety regardless if there is one there or not since I try to prepare for both styles, Striker with thumb safety, Stryker without thumb safety or SA semi with thumb safety.

Stay well.
#19496
No right or wrong answer, just preferences.

If it's on my body it's +1. If it's in the dresser, empty chamber. I want to have to rack it at night to make sure it's want I really want to do and I'm not sleepwalking or something like that. Time to clear the cobwebs so to speak.
#19500
zeda3000 wrote: Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:02 am Guys carry option is depends of where are you living and what is threat level. Example i am not from usa and i am highly training charge my pistol or rifle and shoot it. I don't think this issue depends of trust. Carry full chamber it is not make you ready for gun fight. Can you analyze the situations ? , can you aim under pressure, do you know where to shoot? Don't think empty chamber is weakness, this is option.

How many of yours been in real gun fight ever? Loaded chamber pistol is not prepare you for gun fight. It is only gives you over confidence.

Second think is , there is simple rule. Never point loaded gun your self. If you have only option concealed carry option like in my country. You have to put gun into your pants , so it is make conflict with first rule. If i will allowed open carry i never think about empty chamber. But i am not interesting point the loaded chamber pistol to my balls.
Is empty chamber a Turkish military training thing?
Alot of things can go wrong in a gunfght. I feel adding having to chamber a round just ad's more things, stressful situation you might not pull back far enough, giving the bad guy more time to get you in his sights, what if you ride the slide forward a bit and round doesnt full seat, etc. As long as you're carrying a modern firearm no reason to fear having one in the chamber(except maybe Sigs)
#19502
LT USN (Ret.) wrote: Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:43 am No right or wrong answer, just preferences.

If it's on my body it's +1. If it's in the dresser, empty chamber. I want to have to rack it at night to make sure it's want I really want to do and I'm not sleepwalking or something like that. Time to clear the cobwebs so to speak.
while I don't use any self defense firearm with empty chamber.. I do however use my Tristar T-100 with round in the chamber and hammer down as my nightstand gun... Like you I don't want to be surprised in the middle of the night and pull out a hand cannon with 1lb trigger pull.... My T-100 in double action is almost like having a revolver, you really have to want to pull that trigger.....
#19507
I do have guns that I will not carry hot. My CCW guns do not have 3lb triggers like some. I bought the DA for just this reason. My SIG 365, my EDC, is by design a Concealed carry gun. My others Springfield EMP, Compact 1911, has the best safety system, IMHO, as previously mentioned. In CCW mode they are hot, at home, cleared, and shotguns do the job.

I do have to caveat that I am disabled, hearing and speaking, so I am more vulnerable than most. And I train, train, train!
#19514
I can cite a real world example of where a loaded chamber made a difference, and an empty chamber would have likely had a very different outcome.

A friend was working out of town and staying in a hotel for a few days. He was headed to his truck to go get dinner. As he walked through the parking lot, he was basically tackled on his right side, and taken to the ground. He went to draw his pistol. The attacker was on top of him biting his face and struggling with him over the pistol (an officer sized 1911). He got it clear of the holster, had a hard time establishing a full grip or disengaging his manual safety but finally managed to do so. He fired twice. One round hit the attacker in the hip. The attacker still needed to be forcefully pushed off of him, but once he was pushed off, ran away, and was found by police about a half mile away.

Buddy got several stitches in his face an has a nice scar in the shape of a human mouth bite on his cheek. The attacker got delivered by ambulance to the same ER where my buddy was getting stitched up. Attacker went to prison with a limp. Took over a year for my friend to get his pistol back. He still carries with a loaded chamber based on his experience. But went to a Double action pistol with a decocker, so he wouldn’t have to worry about safeties being hard to deactivate.

His experience drove me toward appendix carry, and a DA/SA pistol with decocker, in favor of my past carry configuration of 4 o’clock carry with a striker fired pistol or cocked and locked carry.

I know his scenario is very specific, and statistically unlikely to happen to anyone else, but it does serve to illustrate, that simple operation may be paramount. Extra steps take time and movement that an attacker may very well deny you.

Just my thoughts.
#19522
I'll add to the conversation from my initial post since there's been great feedback. I prefer DA/SA handguns for EDC as well as nightstand. I don't want a light trigger. I train often with my guns, and I always start in double action. I have no problem hitting center mass out to 15 or so yards in double action, and the transition from double to single isn't an issue for me. Anyway, for a carry and nightstand gun, I prefer a heavier double action pull. I don't want to wake up out of a dead sleep and grab a gun with a light trigger. I love all my striker fired guns, but I grew up with DA/SA and that's what I'm comfortable carrying. And, as I've said, I train with it often. My main guns are the TP9 V2, DA, Walther P99c, CZ P07 and 09. Looking to add a PX4 Storm compact and Bersa Thunder Pro compact sometime soon. There's no right or wrong, but for me, I don't ever carry with an empty chamber. And, if I was still in law enforcement, I'd carry a single action striker model in a level 3 retention holster. But, since I carry IWB, and I'm not in law enforcement and only carry for self protection, it's DA/SA for me. I also prefer not to have safeties, so the DA/SA models are what works best for me.
#19523
In Turkish army always they carry loaded in chamber. In israeli army in city alway emty chamber and out of city loaded chamber.

But as i told you before if in summer and i have to put my pistol into my bermuda short cause of first rule of safety i am not loading the pistol. I winter i am carry out of pants so it is ok. In appendix carry gun pointing directly my balls or leg.
#19529
zeda3000 wrote: Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:18 pm In Turkish army always they carry loaded in chamber. In israeli army in city alway emty chamber and out of city loaded chamber.

But as i told you before if in summer and i have to put my pistol into my bermuda short cause of first rule of safety i am not loading the pistol. I winter i am carry out of pants so it is ok. In appendix carry gun pointing directly my balls or leg.
I was also selective on my holster when I went to appendix carry. Where my JM Custom kydex holster rides, it is directed away from my genitals and leg by position and use of a neoprene wedge that pushes the muzzle away from my anatomy.
#19549
SSGNDoc wrote: Sat Jun 29, 2019 12:50 pm I can cite a real world example of where a loaded chamber made a difference, and an empty chamber would have likely had a very different outcome.

A friend was working out of town and staying in a hotel for a few days. He was headed to his truck to go get dinner. As he walked through the parking lot, he was basically tackled on his right side, and taken to the ground. He went to draw his pistol. The attacker was on top of him biting his face and struggling with him over the pistol (an officer sized 1911). He got it clear of the holster, had a hard time establishing a full grip or disengaging his manual safety but finally managed to do so. He fired twice. One round hit the attacker in the hip. The attacker still needed to be forcefully pushed off of him, but once he was pushed off, ran away, and was found by police about a half mile away.

Buddy got several stitches in his face an has a nice scar in the shape of a human mouth bite on his cheek. The attacker got delivered by ambulance to the same ER where my buddy was getting stitched up. Attacker went to prison with a limp. Took over a year for my friend to get his pistol back. He still carries with a loaded chamber based on his experience. But went to a Double action pistol with a decocker, so he wouldn’t have to worry about safeties being hard to deactivate.

His experience drove me toward appendix carry, and a DA/SA pistol with decocker, in favor of my past carry configuration of 4 o’clock carry with a striker fired pistol or cocked and locked carry.

I know his scenario is very specific, and statistically unlikely to happen to anyone else, but it does serve to illustrate, that simple operation may be paramount. Extra steps take time and movement that an attacker may very well deny you.

Just my thoughts.
That’s why I wanted the DA, round ready , decocker engaged, but still with (granted a harder pull ) get a shot off immediately.

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