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Discussion for Competition Shooting.
By StuartV
#45956
I got my TP9 SFx last June, immediately put a Holosun 507C-Green on it, installed a Freedomsmith trigger and Galloway springs, and have put probably somewhere around 2,000 rounds through it since then. My purpose in buying it was to have my first gun with an optic on it and get used to shooting with that, in prep for taking delivery on a new EDC I'm having built that will have an optic on it. Up until about 6 weeks ago, I have been shooting the Canik almost exclusively, really working on getting used to shooting with an optic. About 1 month ago, I also updated it to have a tungsten guide rod, brass back strap, and brass mag base pads - all to tame the recoil a bit for shooting USPSA.

My current EDC is a Dan Wesson Guardian in 38 Super. That means it's a 1911 Commander, with a bobtail frame. I.e. 4.25" barrel, and (in 38 Super or 9mm) 10+1 capacity (using common aftermarket mags - 9+1 with the factory mags). I've been carrying 1911s for almost 30 years. I also have a factory 9mm barrel setup for the Guardian, so I can switch back and forth. I always carry it setup for 38 Super, but I usually switch to the 9mm setup when I go to the range, just because of ammo at 30 cents per round, versus 45 cents per round (for 38 Super). It is bone stock.

In the last 6 weeks or so, I have shot 2 USPSA matches and 2 IDPA matches. What guns I used in each were:

USPSA: Canik in Carry Optic
IDPA: Commander 9mm in ESP, and 1911 CCO 45 in CDP
USPSA: Canik in Carry Optic, Commander 9mm in Single Stack
IDPA: Commander 9mm in ESP

Shooting that 1 USPSA match with 2 guns was great because it let me get a direct comparison between shooting my Canik (with optic) to shooting my 1911 Commander 9mm with iron sights.

Today, I want to the range and put about 100 rounds through my Commander with the 38 Super barrel in it, and then another 200 rounds through my Canik. I was running drills, with a shot timer, so I also got some good data today to add to my comparison.

The bottom line is: With a 1911 Commander and iron sights, I am about 2 tenths of a second quicker on time from buzzer to first shot (starting with gun holstered and hands in Surrender position). After numerous reps, it was pretty consistent. With the Commander (which I shot first), my average time (over 21 reps) to 1st shot was 1.21 seconds. With the Canik, my average time (over 10 reps of that particular drill) to 1st shot was 1.44 seconds. I have DAA rigs for both, with DAA PDR Pro-II holsters for both), so I think it was pretty apples-to-apples on that comparison.

On splits between shots on the same target, I'm about 1/10 quicker with the Canik. Since I was shooting the 1911 in 38 Super today, which is just a little more snappy than in 9mm, I'd expect to have slightly quicker splits with the 1911, when shooting 9mm. But only just slightly. Also, the Canik has almost 1/2 a pound of weight added to it. Stock Canik versus stock Commander in 9mm, I think I'd have slightly quicker splits with the Commander than with the Canik.

The USPSA match also revealed that I am consistently more accurate with the 1911 with iron sights. On every stage where I did not have any kind of mechanical issue I had almost identical times on the stage, but scored more points with the 1911. Out of 70+ shooters at the USPSA match, I think I was in the top 10-ish on number of points scored on the stages. I'm just really slow, so I still finished in the back half of the pack. Maybe even the last 1/4 of the pack.

After a decent amount of introspection and also a good consult with one of my best friends, who is a USPSA Open Master shooter, I think the main reason I do better with the 1911 is that it is quicker and easier for me to get a good, proper grip on the gun. When I drop my hand to grab it, my first contact is with the beavertail (which is quite prominent on a 1911) and my hand has a fraction of a second to feel that and let me orient it so that when I finally really contact the grip/frame, my hand is really in the right place immediately.

In contrast, the Canik does not have that high point that I touch/feel first and that lets me index my hand to grab it correctly immediately. I feel like I almost always touch the grip/frame and have to adjust my hand slightly before I can really grab it and draw.

I think the superior 1911 trigger may also be part of the reason I am more accurate with it, even though it is iron sights and a shorter barrel. If I slow fire the Canik, for accuracy, it shoots nice, tight groups.

Lastly, all the experts seem to talk about an adjustment period for people transitioning from iron sights to an optic. But, my personal feeling is that it takes longer than what most people seem to suggest. Like I said, I've been working on it since last June. I've put around 2000-ish rounds through my Canik with the optic on it. I have done a fair bit of dry fire practice with it at home, too. I think it is still taking me longer to get an initial sight picture with my green dot than it does with iron sights.

Anyway, just some thoughts or observations on different guns and speed, that might be relevant to competition shooters.

With IDPA rules allowing 1911s to compete head to head against guns like the Canik, in the same division (e.g. ESP, Carry Optic, and CCP), I think for IDPA shooters, a 1911 in 9mm is THE way to go - for ESP, CO, and CCP divisions. The only advantage a Canik would have is higher mag capacity, which IDPA doesn't allow you to use in those Divisions. Division limit is 10 rounds. I just measured and weighed my Commander, and I think it would actually even be legal in the IDPA CCP (Compact Carry Pistol) division!

I should add, for USPSA, where striker-fired guns like Caniks don't compete head to head with 1911s (except in Open and Limited), the Canik is still definitely the way to go, in my book. I shoot mine in USPSA Carry Optics and would shoot it with iron sights in Production, if I had a second Canik.
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By LT USN (Ret.)
#45957
Great head-to-head comparison.

I'll stick with my SFx with SRO as my old eyes are, well, old. I have to wear one specific set of full lens reading glasses to see the front sight on any iron sight guns I own. I do shoot both Steel and USPSA matches with a S&W M&P full size in Limited Division every once in a while (when I remember to bring my special reading glasses).
By ncjw
#45960
Great analysis! Thoughts:

- So if you are 2/10's faster to first shot with the 1911 but 1/10 faster between shots with the Canik, then after two shots the Canik wins, correct? (Not adjusting for accuracy.)

- Agreed, the FS is great, but nothing beats a good 1911 trigger.

- Both the BW Commander and the SFx both weigh 29 ozs. So I am curious as to the difference if you went back to a stock SFx without the added weight. (As an aside, is the DW now the official sidearm of the Washington football team?...)

- We have had a debate around here on the 1911, thumb riding safety or under it?

- You only have ONE Canik?!?!...
By StuartV
#45963
ncjw wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 8:18 am Great analysis! Thoughts:

- So if you are 2/10's faster to first shot with the 1911 but 1/10 faster between shots with the Canik, then after two shots the Canik wins, correct? (Not adjusting for accuracy.)

- Agreed, the FS is great, but nothing beats a good 1911 trigger.

- Both the BW Commander and the SFx both weigh 29 ozs. So I am curious as to the difference if you went back to a stock SFx without the added weight. (As an aside, is the DW now the official sidearm of the Washington football team?...)

- We have had a debate around here on the 1911, thumb riding safety or under it?

- You only have ONE Canik?!?!...
LOL!! I am very tempted to buy a Rival. But, the only reason I have a Canik at all was just to have something cheap to shoot to learn how to shoot with an optic. The one I have is serving that purpose. And, I just finished doing all the "upgrades". If I got a Rival, I would have to do all the same upgrades, and then my TP9SFx would just be sitting, collecting dust. It's too big for me to want to use it as a carry gun. My local matches (both USPSA and IDPA) only allow people to shoot one gun in a match (normally - they made special exceptions recently because those matches were "start of season" all-Classifier matches and lightly attended). I just can't see spending all that money to get a Rival and upgrade it, just to shoot USPSA CO division once a month - not when I already have a nice TP9SFx I can use for that.

For anything else, I would choose one of my 1911s over either Canik, every time.

I cannot dispute your math on splits versus draw - other than I think it would take 4 shots (2 double taps each on 2 targets) before they would be tied. The 1/10th difference I was seeing was for splits between repeated shots on the same target. But, there are a lot of factors involved (obviously), none of which is going to change my current program (which is to shoot my Commander in IDPA and my Canik in USPSA). I'm not going to win anything, regardless. I just want to have fun shooting, get better at practical shooting, and get better at shooting with an optic.

I don't get the reference to DW and the 'skins. I don't pay any attention to pro football, so I have probably missed something in current events. LOL

I was part of some recent debate on here about the 1911 thumb safety. For me, it is thumb on top, always. Prior to that recent thread, I didn't realize there was anyone that shot it any other way, other than if they just had never been told you're supposed to have thumb on top. NOW, I get that maybe some people's hands just don't work like that, so I'm not saying you have to do it either way. But, if it's comfortable for you and your hand, then I would definitely RECOMMEND to shoot it with thumb riding on top of the safety.
By StuartV
#45984
Annnd.... after all that, I couldn't resist. I found a Rival Dark Side online for the lowest out the door price I've seen ($619.99, all in, delivered) and ordered it today.

I am so weak-willed! LOL SO bad!

Hopefully, receive it next week, just in time to do it up and shoot it in the monthly USPSA match.
By Ben W.
#46022
I shot my first 1911 in 1972, if I remember correctly, and shot one regularly for the next several decades, both for run and for competitions, including some USPSA in the '90's. So, That grip was VERY ingrained into my muscle memory. More recently I started working with Glocks, which have a slightly different grip angle and although I could shoot the Glock well, it took a fraction of a second longer to realign the sights after the draw. In the last couple of years I've been working with the TP9SFx with an optic sight, and it's been a learning process all over again, with the biggest issue being finding the darned dot!! As a Super-Senior shooter (I turn 69 this year) I'm not really that competitive so I shoot mostly for fun. I do think that if I ever get the "find the dot" issue down, I'll be as fast with the Canik as I was with the 1911. Time will tell.... good luck with your own journey into new fields.
By ncjw
#46023
As an almost Super Senior who loves red dots, I tell others new to red dots to "look for the front sight". People with previous shooting experience usually find it pretty quickly. It's second nature to me now.
By StuartV
#46229
I shot my first ever Steel Challenge match yesterday. I shot my new Rival (with a red dot) and my 1911 Commander (Dan Wesson Guardian, in 9mm, with stock iron sights).

If you don't know SC: This match had 5 stages. Other matches could have more or less. Each stage has 5 steel plates. They can be anything from an 8" round plate to an 18x24" rectangle. They are put out at different distances. One plate will be painted red (or mounted on a red post) and that is the Stop plate. You have to shoot every plate once, hitting the Stop plate last. You can shoot as many rounds as you want, but every stage has 5 targets. You shoot each stage 5 times (aka shoot 5 strings). So, if you don't have any misses or extra shots, every stage requires 25 rounds - 5 strings of 5 shots. 5 stages means a minimum round count of 125. Your worst string time on each stage is thrown out and the other 4 added up. The total time is your score on each stage. Note: There is ONE standard stage that is shot as best 3 of 4, rather than best 4 of 5. There is generally no movement during the stage (except that one 3-of-4 stage, where you do run 6 feet from one box to another during your string).

Anyway.... I got all my individual string times and was able to compare how I shot each stage with the 2 guns.

I guess I'm starting to get used to having a red dot. In this match, I was fairly consistent at being between 1 and 5 tenths of a second quicker on every string with the Canik.

On individual stages, I was faster on 2 of them with the 1911, but only by 1.07 seconds on one and 0.21 seconds on the other.

The other 3 stages, I was faster with the Canik and by bigger margins. Over 2 seconds on one, over 4 seconds on another, and about 1.5 seconds on the last one.

Total time for the match, I was at 96 seconds with the Canik and 102 seconds with the 1911.

As a side note that may or may not have relevance to how well I did with each gun, I got a digital trigger pull gauge on Friday. My 1911 is 4# 2oz. My Rival (with Galloway springs) is 4# even. So, very, very close in pull and reset, actually.

The Rival is a fantastic gun. Even moreso, when I consider that it is striker-fired, and that it only cost $600.... Kinda makes me wish they made a compact model of the Rival that is as small or smaller than my Guardian - in particular, as narrow in width and with a grip that was as (not) bulky or even less bulky. Something like my Springfield Hellcat, but with a 3.5 - 4 inch barrel.
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By LT USN (Ret.)
#46230
StuartV wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 3:36 pm I shot my first ever Steel Challenge match yesterday.
You didn't say how much you liked it (or didn't).

You can go to the Steel Challenge site https://scsa.org/calculator and enter your hit factor by stage to see how you did against everybody else in your class. You can do it for Carry Optics & Single Stack (assuming that's the division you entered). This is of course assuming it was Steel Challange sanctioned vice an "outlaw steel match".
By StuartV
#46231
LT USN (Ret.) wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 4:10 pm You didn't say how much you liked it (or didn't).

You can go to the Steel Challenge site https://scsa.org/calculator and enter your hit factor by stage to see how you did against everybody else in your class. You can do it for Carry Optics & Single Stack (assuming that's the division you entered). This is of course assuming it was Steel Challange sanctioned vice an "outlaw steel match".
LOL :grin:

I liked it a lot. It was fun! Everyone there was super nice. It was very laid back. The local USPSA match I have been shooting is nice and cool people, but it definitely has a more "uptight" vibe than the IDPA or Steel match.

It was a SCSA match and I have thoroughly reviewed all that data. My times on 4 of the stages (with both guns) were C class (generally in the 50-something percent range). On one stage, I was B class (67% with the Canik and 63% with the 1911) with both guns. Yes, I shot CO and SS.

Also, the Canik ran flawlessly. I think I had 2 jams with my 1911, both of which were cleared quickly and easily with a quick rack of the slide. I'm still not sure if my issues with that 1911 are the ammo I'm using (Freedom Munitions 147gr RN), or if it's because I bought a 9mm barrel and recoil spring for it from Dan Wesson and just dropped them in with no fitting. The next time I have a chance to shoot that gun in a match, I might leave the 38 Super barrel in and shoot 38 Super ammo instead.

Regardless, this is a Canik forum and the Rival has been flawless so far. I hope it stays that way after my upcoming planned work to try and reduce the trigger pull a bit more...

When we finished the last stage, one of the guys in my squad offered to let me try his gun. He was shooting a fully built Open gun. A 1911 in 38 Super. Built specifically for shooting Steel matches. Frame-mounted C-more red dot. Compensator. Shooting 38 Super Comp (not 38 Super Auto) rounds. I ran 2 mags through it, hammering away at a 10" steel plate. That thing was awesome. Shoot as fast as I could pull the trigger and the red dot just stayed on the plate the whole time. And he told me afterwards that the trigger pull measures 19 ounces! LOL! It was just AWESOME! I can see now how those Open shooters in USPSA can lay down such fast split times on their double taps!
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By 2strokeYardSale
#46247
I shot my USPSA Open gun in steel challenge a few weeks ago and it didn't want to run lower power ammo. I am looking forward to shooting my Rival, even in Open, where there is little or no disadvantage to shooting it compared to a full custom 1911 or 2011.

By StuartV
#46248
2strokeYardSale wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 11:12 am I shot my USPSA Open gun in steel challenge a few weeks ago and it didn't want to run lower power ammo. I am looking forward to shooting my Rival, even in Open, where there is little or no disadvantage to shooting it compared to a full custom 1911 or 2011.
Nice! Good shooting.

It seems like the only real disadvantage to shooting the Rival in Open is not being able to make Major, right? (unless you are loading Super 9 rounds for yourself?)

Well, and I guess maybe you'll probably never get the gun to weigh as much as a built 1911/2011, so that *could* be considered a small disadvantage.
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By LT USN (Ret.)
#46252
StuartV wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 3:42 pm LOL! Why? I haven't shot that one yet, but what makes you hate it?
Distance to back targets & old eyes. I'm more of a "Smoke & Hope" guy. Blast them large, close targets fast.
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By FrankW
#46253
Ben W. wrote: "As a Super-Senior shooter (I turn 69 this year) I'm not really that competitive so I shoot mostly for fun."

You are a long way from a Super-Senior shooter. I am 87 and wish I could shoot like a 69-year-old.

Frank
By StuartV
#46254
LT USN (Ret.) wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 4:39 pm
StuartV wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 3:42 pm LOL! Why? I haven't shot that one yet, but what makes you hate it?
Distance to back targets & old eyes. I'm more of a "Smoke & Hope" guy. Blast them large, close targets fast.
LOL! I gotcha!

We DID shoot Smoke & Hope at the match on Saturday. That was my favorite. I shot C times on all the other stages, but managed solid B class times with both guns on that one. Don't even need sights for the first 4 targets on that stage.. LOL!
#46256
It seems like the only real disadvantage to shooting the Rival in Open is not being able to make Major, right? (unless you are loading Super 9 rounds for yourself?)

Well, and I guess maybe you'll probably never get the gun to weigh as much as a built 1911/2011, so that *could* be considered a small disadvantage.
In USPSA or IPSC Open/Unlimited, Major and magazine capacity. (Maybe TF makes a 170mm extension?) I wonder if somebody could make a good barrel/compensator combination, whether the platform would stand up to 9 Major.

I just swtiched my 2011 from a plastic grip to a stainless steel grip. The weight difference is huge but the shooting advantage is small.
By StuartV
#46258
2strokeYardSale wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 7:43 pm
It seems like the only real disadvantage to shooting the Rival in Open is not being able to make Major, right? (unless you are loading Super 9 rounds for yourself?)

Well, and I guess maybe you'll probably never get the gun to weigh as much as a built 1911/2011, so that *could* be considered a small disadvantage.
In USPSA or IPSC Open/Unlimited, Major and magazine capacity. (Maybe TF makes a 170mm extension?) I wonder if somebody could make a good barrel/compensator combination, whether the platform would stand up to 9 Major.

I just swtiched my 2011 from a plastic grip to a stainless steel grip. The weight difference is huge but the shooting advantage is small.
TF does make a +9, 170mm for Canik.

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