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Canik Firearm Reviews and Range Reports. Share your Canik experiences with other members.
#45684
All,

In case anyone's interested in how a W74 rod works with +P ammo recoil springs (with a TP9SFx) here's some test info. My interest is in shooting +P-level ammo, not lighter stuff, and I've been learning about the spring rates appropriate for +P ammo. My last post was on the Canik red recoil spring assembly (RSA) with different ammo energy levels. It was here: topic4713.html

After finding that the Canik red spring works well for heavier ammo, I bought the W74 guide rod to gain muzzle weight. To use that with +P ammo I went the way of using Wolff Colt Commander 20,22,24lb springs (Wolff part #: 42220, 42222, 42224). Galloway Precision says the stock Canik RSA is a 19.1lb spring and they sell 20,22,24lb springs with their RSA. So this all makes sense as a whole for non-lightweight ammo.

I shot the 22lb spring the other day with 380ft-lb 124gr ammo. The 22lb spring worked very well (no FTE, no FTF, and empty-magazine lock-up worked perfectly). I would say the gun recoils smoother than with the Canik red RSA. The end of the slide's recoil travel seems less abrupt. It feels like a smooth stop happens when the slide reaches its limit, so recoil is not "snappy". I think this has to do with the spring wire shapes. The Commander spring (with its round wire) seems to compress at its limit more smoothly than the flat-wire spring used in the Canik RSAs. It's hard to say why recoil seems smoother for sure, but when racking the slide manually the end-point seem to have some softness to it with the Commander spring. Ejection seemed OK, but some shells (about 20% of them) seemed to land roughly at the 3pm position instead of the 4-5pm position. I'm not sure this if this indicates a problem because everything else worked fine. I think this is because the slide does not go back as far as with the Canik RSA. So maybe some ejection energy is not getting used since recoil stops sooner. (This is because the Commander 22lb spring is "longish" and when compressed it does not allow the slide to move as far back as the Canik RSAs do. The 24lb spring uses thicker wire, and while it's not as long, with the thicker wire it nets about the same slide stopping point, so it would probably behave in the same way.)

I have not tried the 20lb or 24lb springs yet since 22lb seemed about comparable to the Canik red spring that I like for 380ft-lb ammo. I don't have a spring meter, so I estimated that by simply using manual slide racking of the different springs. I think the 24lb spring has a place too, and at some point I'll test that on some 420ft-lb ammo that I have. The 22lb spring seems to allow an easier press-check on a loaded chamber. The Canik red RSA seems to hold battery position a bit more strongly although the 22lb Commander spring seems stronger at the compressed end of slide travel.

Finally, I tried the 22lb spring on some lighter 335ft-lb ammo. It worked OK on that too! No FTEs and the gun cycled perfectly there too. So for my normal ammo spectrum I'd say the 22lb spring works well. I wouldn't go lighter for my ammo choices, and I'd only go heavier when using 400+ft-lb stuff.

I have a 3.5oz light/laser on the pic rail to go along with the W74 guide rod weight. Adding the 22lb spring to the ballast-weight picture sure makes recoil/muzzle-flip pretty smooth even on +P ammo! At this point recoil is a non-issue with my setup even on the higher energy levels - it's really smooth is the best way I can describe it (there's nothing harsh about the recoil process). I'd rate the setup as an A-. (Minus because of the open question on the ejection pattern.)

I hope this helps folks regarding stronger ammo recoil questions with the W74 guide rod.
#45691
No problem, I'm happy to write-up what I learn that might be useful to others (to answer questions they might have and that I've not seen posted previously). I'm just never sure that what I post is of interest to others, so it's a crap-shoot in that.
#46040
What does the muzzle do at the end of the cycle?

I don't really care what it does at the back (as long as it doesn't hit so hard that it damages anything).

What I want is for it to not hit so hard as it goes into battery that it causes the muzzle to dip below its starting point. That is what a recoil spring that is too heavy will do - make the slide go forward so hard that the muzzle dips below "flat". Perfection is when the combo of load, spring, and shooter results in the muzzle dropping exactly back to original point of aim when it goes into battery.

A stiff spring may feel great and take out the "snap", but if it slows down the follow-up shot it is not the spring I want.
#46042
I didn't notice any significant dip, but maybe I just didn't notice. I understand your point. (You could look at the video on Galloway Precision to see a 24lb spring in action, but on their not-heavy guide rod.)

I'm going to the range again on Wed so I'll pay some attention and try to "measure" the dip aspect of the recoil/flip process more closely. Obviously the next step toward balance would be to step down and use a 20lb spring instead of 22lb, but that's about the default Canik spring setup (but with the heavy W74 guide rod of course). I'll post back here later this week with what I learn (if anything). Maybe I'll try both the 22lb and 20lb springs on the same ~380ft-lb ammo and see the difference regarding muzzle dip.
#46043
I have been pondering the same basic question - how to "measure" the dip aspect of the recoil.

My new Rival is supposed to arrive tomorrow and I have a guide rod and spring pack coming for it. I want to tune the recoil spring to make it shoot the flattest I can.

I was debating bringing out my good camera to the range and trying to shoot some high frame rate video with different springs, to see if I could tell what gives the flattest shooting.

But, then I realized there is probably a simpler way to achieve the ultimate goal.

My thinking is to do this (and it's pretty simple): My plan is to simply put in one spring after another, then carefully get a good grip with just one hand and a good sight picture on my desired target, then shoot 2 rounds as quickly as I can (i.e. in the 0.10 - 0.15 second range). After each pair, look to see where the holes are. Doing that multiple times with each spring.

The best spring SHOULD (I think) be the one that gives me the two holes that are closest together.

Realistically, I suspect that the best spring will be the lightest one that actually allows the gun to work reliably. But, it may turn out that, just say for example, the 12, 13, and 14# springs all give similar results. If that turns out to be the case, then probably the heavier of them would be better, just to give more likelihood of reliably cycling. I really don't know.

My thought is to try it shooting just strong-hand. With less "grip" on the gun, I suspect that the recoil spring will show more difference between different weights. And what works best when shooting one-handed should also work best when shooting with two hands. I think. As well, shooting one-handed is more likely to reveal any problems - say, from using too light a spring. Again, if it's reliable shooting one-handed, it definitely should be reliable using both hands.

Side note: The only time my TP9 SFx has been unreliable (other than problems with Pro Mag mags) has been when I let my 17 year old niece shoot it. It kept jamming on her - because even with two hands, she wasn't holding it firmly enough.

The Wolff Reduced Power Spring pack has 5 springs - 12 ,13, 14, 15, and 16#. I will probably start with the 12 and work my way heavy, until I find the point where it's heavy enough to be reliable, but then starts to show noticeable divergence on the second shot.

It should be a fun experiment, anyway. I sure would love to dial the gun in to where I can shoot my fastest splits and have the bullet holes be right on top of each other. Of course, it may not be possible with this gun, as light as it is (even with the USPSA CO division-allowed add-ons). But, I think it can get "flat" or pretty darn close to it - at least when shooting with 2 hands.
#46079
So at the range yesterday I used 124gr ammo (380ft-lb) and 115gr (335ft-lb). I only used the 20lb Commander spring. As said before I have a 3.5oz light/laser mounted along with the W74 guide-rod. (I also have ballast weight on the grip.) That rig produced virtually no muzzle dip as far as I could tell. The gun settled back to its starting point without any unusual effort. So I'd say this config is "balanced" - at least for my simple concerns (as said I don't compete). I didn't try the 22lb spring during my session (due to ammo costs - as usual these days) since the 20lb was working so well. (Aside: Galloway says the stock Canik spring is 19.1lb. The 20lb spring feels to me, subjectively, like the Canik red spring when manually racking the slide, although the Canik spring assembly allows more recoil slide travel and better ejection (more backward than lateral).)

In conclusion on my spring experiments I'd say the 20 and 22lb springs each work, with the 20 having a dip advantage on this ammo range while the 22 has a recoil/flip advantage. The 20lb spring with 380ft-lb ammo was not punishing and definitely not "sharp". It produced a nice sort of recoil impact on the hand/arm component of the system. (The 22lb spring decreased the impact on the hand/arm, but with more return force from the spring being felt, although I don't recall any significant dip when I shot that config last time.)

I would probably choose the 22lb spring when using ammo at 400ft-lb or above, just to tame the recoil/flip motion. On that energy level the 22lb spring might actually be the balanced choice since recoil/flip will be higher and that might balance the return force back to the neutral position with negligible dip.

For me I'll stay with the 20 or 22lb spring as my default since I have mostly ammo in the 360-380ft-lb range with a little at 335 and 400ft-lb. I haven't decided just yet which spring I like more.

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